Clifton CC

Just posting here to see if there’s much consensus to my opinions.

What is clear and has already been alluded to, is that if we’re going to have 30+ people turning up it’s going to have to be split into groups. Otherwise, we’re going to have a serious accident as Yorkshire’s motorists do their best, through their driving, to demonstrate their displeasure at arriving at their destination a minute or two later than expected. Perhaps as soon as the first 10 turn up, away they go and so on and we’re going to need a reasonable amount of separation to avoid us all meeting up again at the next set of lights.

Secondly, we’ve a few under 18s coming along and perhaps quite a few newbies. I for one would take a dim view of a club that left one of my youngsters (they’re nowhere old enough for club runs yet - or interested in cycling for that matter) ending up on their own owing to mechanicals or not having requisite fitness, possibly not knowing where they were. For a club of our standing, we really have no choice but to look after everyone. The first couple groups can go off and largely look after themselves, but the last group should essentially be a mop up squad. The lead groups wouldn’t need to concern themselves with stopping for mechanicals and riding at the pace of the slowest rider.

That doesn’t mean the last group is a slow group (it is a training ride after all), in fact the last group ideally should contain quite a few of the stronger more experienced riders with the majority of less fit riders heading off in the earlier groups, where if they find the pace too hot they can slip back to be mopped up by the last group. Of course, because of mechanicals and people struggling, it’s going to mean sometimes the strong boys & girls in the last group won’t get the work out they’d like – so ride in the other groups for a few weeks before returning to duty in the last group for a week or so.

Well that’s my two pennorth – what do you think?

Sounds good to me - I was serious about sending the first ten off before they start chatting!

Younger/slower riders:- my thoughts are...
-We need to keep a running conversation going with Andy J to ensure we know when under-18's are turning up from the Go-Ride squad and ensure we can keep them safe.
-Over-18s need to take the advice on the Training Ride thread and take a look at the map to ensure they can get home if dropped - this seems to be happening okay from feedback I've had, and...
-Everyone needs to take a bit of responsibility for keeping groups together as far as possible - this is a group ride. If you're on the front take an occasional look behind; go steady up hills and re-group if necessary. There were a few times last week where everything got messy and strung out because those on the front were cheerfully hammering along while riders behind were struggling to close gaps. I'll say it again - it's only November and easing off the pedals once in a while now won't make you any less quick come March..

A group of 20 riding nice and tight is less of a problem than a dozen all over the road, if we are doing it properly we don't have to apologise for being a cycling club using the roads. I regularly ride in groups of over 20 riders, no one ever says we should split up, maybe it's just a York thing.

Agree with all of the above. Although I can understand the nervousness of riding close to other people, we need to make sure everyone stays nice and tight to wheel in front. Less irritating to the motorists and you benefit from the drafting and therefore get less tired towards end of the ride. Not down next couple of weeks but always happy to lead one of the rides if we need to split the group. If Andy J is aware that a Junior is coming down who might need some support it would be good if he could let us know in advance so we are mindful. Couple of months ago a young lad came down. He did great but did get really tired and one of us dropped back to shepherd him back home. Not a problem and don't think Andy J would have known this lad was coming down but is easy to see how some one like that potentially could get "lost" particulary with the numbers we had last Saturday. It pays to be nice to these Juniors anyway as they will be kicking our backsides in a couple of years time
As has been said it is important that everyone as a fair idea of the route. Although we all agree that we keep these rides nice and steady some people still clearly like to 'stretch the chain' a bit in the last 10 miles or so - nothing crazy, just a slight upping of pace. As posted on another thread, Mike got dropped from our group last week near Stillington...Sorry Mike . As you said you did a big turn before that which probably undid you.

I hope my input helps being one of the slower riders and new to the Training Rides. I'm coming on these rides to improve so if I can't keep up then I see it as my problem and I need to improve. The lads I was with last week were great, really helped me but ultimately cut me no slack which is what I wanted. I think I got more out of the ride being dropped than having the group slow down for me. Dropping youngsters however is another thing with the main worry being that as a club I think we need to make sure everyone gets home safely. Broom Wagon's comments are therefore very valid and ensuring that the youngsters (and myself!!!) are in the last group, and this group pushes but keeps an eye on the last man has got to be a good idea.

Nice one Broom wagon.

I agree we should be able to offer a training ride suited for less-experienced riders, under-18's, those recovering from injury (Toby) and anyone else who feels that a steadier ride would suit their training aims. With 30 riders wanting to get out on a Saturday morning, I'm sure there are at least 10 who are in this group.

I also think we should be setting off in groups of 10 or so. It is easier to spot if someone is struggling in this group size, you get more turns on the front, you get to know people's names and have a bit more of a chat and it is a bit more considerate to car drivers.

As a small twist to the original idea, I propose we have a group that sets off at ten to 9 that aims to meet the needs of these people. But let's not do a dis-service to this group by calling it the "slow" group because I don't think it should be slow. It will probably be slower up the hills and there should be a deliberate aim of the group leader to stop at the top of any hills and re-count the group. But apart from that, it should be a training ride like any other - it should be reasonably challenging and it should help to build group riding skills by focusing on good through-and-off etc.

By deliberately setting this group off earlier and by everyone deciding for themselves which group they are in, this means that the groups setting off at 9 and after can go for it and stretch the chain as they wish. By offering a very slightly steadier option, those who are in the 9am groups shouldn't expect others to ease off for them (or at least as much).

I am happy to volunteer to lead off this group on Saturday - for clarity, lets call this group the "ten to niners". I suggest we do this once and then we can assess on this forum next week if it was a good idea or not.

Sound sensible?

Good idea regarding sending groups off as soon as we get 10 or so.

Would sending different groups on different routes confuse things? It only takes a couple of punctures/traffic light hold ups and 3 groups of 10 become one mass group of 30 (as happened last week).

I realise that it's November and we should keep everything steady, but I think that if you're not a junior and can't hang on you can expect to be dropped. It happened to me quite a lot last year and just made me more determined to stick with it the following week. I actually felt relieved on occassions to fall of the back as I could imagine that people were getting annoyed having to constantly knock a mile off to allow me to stay on.

Martin

Martin, Mike H and Darren have got it right in my view and that it to say that good discipline and determined riding is always paramount as is the principle that a ride is for the greater good of the majority. If you cannot cope with the pace, then knowing the route before-hand is a pre-requisite and if you drop, you drop unless some urgent action is required, in which case the group should respond accordingly.
The return leg (in the group I found myself in) last week, largely led by Cam and Richard, saw us ride progressively and consistently with minimal interruption - a solid minimum-standard ride for this time of year. Mike H acknowledged he suffered and he was well supported by Cam until he was dropped. His attitude is to be applauded – as he says, may he return stronger…I hope so
Juniors should be catered for separately…..and they should know the risks of being dropped should they choose to ride. So long as everyone knows where they stand, then the tensions and fluctuations which were evident on the outward leg last week should be avoided
Andy

I’d still class myself as a newbie despite this being my second season on the training rides. I only did the first few training rides of the season last year and never managed to finish any – they were a real struggle for me. But it was a good learning curve and has prepared me for this season.

As a real newbie what caught me out last year (apart from my fitness) were the changes in effort within the group, it could get quite erratic. When we got to a hill sometimes it felt like we were trying to keep the pace consistent rather than the effort. Also sprinting away from junctions and then not always being aware of dropping people at said junctions. In these situations why can't we sit up very briefly to allow those who have been dropped (due to traffic not tiredness) to get back on. Don’t get me wrong, the main reason I got dropped was because I wasn’t fit/strong enough but I knew where I was and could always get myself home, so it wasn’t an issue. If we had a group that could avoid or at least minimise doing the above then I reckon we could look after newbies/under 18’s much better without really sacrificing the overall speed. But at the end of the day, if you’re not strong/fit enough then you will have to accept that you’ll get dropped - as I did many times - and no doubt will do again.

2 rides down and 2 rides completed for me this year and although I am stronger than last year I would still welcome a group where I could pace myself a bit more and gradually build effort as the season progresses, rather than hanging on for dear life too early on.

If some people are seeing stars and chewing bar tape to keep with the group in November I think you need to have a steady group where newcomers/youngsters can get used to riding tight in the wheels without any major fatigue drama. The more experienced racers could take turns leading this group...no one gets left behind in this group, a sort of brisk K ride.
When you feel ready move up to the hardcore old mens training group, where Cam and Martin can give you a proper kickin.

It seems there is some appetite for a steadier group.

Can I suggest that I will be there for 8:45am with the aim of setting off at ten to nine? If one or two experienced riders want to join this group, that would be great (any takers?). I don't want to present myself as one of the old hands (I'm not) but I do know the way and I'm prepared to take it steady and make sure everyone is together at junctions and up hills.

If there are only a few that turn up for the ten to nine steadier ride, then we'll just wait for everyone else and set off as normal. I won't go if there are less than 7 or 8 because then this group becomes too small and harder as a result which is not the point. If there were 8 to 12 of us, that would be great.

If we get caught by groups behind before Milby TLI circuit, then faster groups could do a loop of that while we continue straight on to Easingwold and then they could try to catch us again.

We can assess on forum if this works next week. I wouldn't be able to (or want to) do this every week but am happy to kick it off and see how it goes...

I'm happy to join you at 08:45 Reuben - I'm still trying to take it relatively easy so a slightly steadier group would be perfect.

Reuben, some good ideas have been suggested, but rather than worry about the other groups catching you up and having to do extra wouldnt it be better to leave 10 minutes after everyone else. This would prevent any groups merging assuming no mechanicals etc, and anyone wanting to try and "stretch" them selves or test their fitness in a faster group would be confident they had a group to drop back to if this proved too much for them rather than get dropped completely.

I don't really know which is better - by setting off the stronger group first, anyone dropped has the benefit of a fall-back option as you say. Or setting off steadier group first gives safety net of a couple of groups behind to tow along any that have been dropped from first group (with our knowledge).

As you can see, I have gone for the latter option for tomorrow's experiment. And my only logic for this was that by setting off those who have chosen to be in steadier group first, there is a safety net for them with more groups behind. If we set off the steadier group last, then there is no safety net at all and they are definitely on their own if they choose to drop off. As this steadier group should be for those we want to encourage into group riding, I thought it a better option to give them the safety net rather than the other way round.

I think the first issue is to see if there is enough demand for the steadier group. If only 3 people want this (which will be very apparent at 8:45am tomorrow) then all of the discussions are academic anyway. If there are enough takers, it can be altered based on everyone's feedback from first experiment.

PS. The other think I meant to mention is that on my first training ride, which happened to go up Terrington Bank and then on to Malton, Broomwagon came back to make sure I was alright when I totally fell off the back after Terrington. This was an absolute credit to him and I'm not surprised that it was him to start off this thread.

This one experience made me come back again and again confident that I would be looked after by Clifton. So thanks Broomwagon!